Why the MFA is important.

Many years ago,

(and by the way, "many years ago" seems to be a refrain this week, which is alarming)

Peter Carey was my very first workshop instructor at Columbia. We were his first workshop, too, and he was visibly nervous, and he said to us, moments after entering the classroom on that inaugural day, "I'm going back to my office." He was shaking. "I want you all to come in one by one and talk to me." It was everyone's first day. We all sat there, stunned, looking at each other in embarrassment. Raul Correa took charge and lined us up for our Carey visits: alphabetically, I think.

Peter gave us all a lot of simple, beautiful, essential advice -- advice like:

You've got to know the rules before you break them.

and

If your first 40 pages aren't a good foundation, you cannot go on with the rest of your novel.

This all seems obvious, I'm sure. But to a 22-year-old know-it all, learning the rules seemed like a waste of time. What made Peter so generous and patient and kind is that he did not throw me and my precocious classmates and our delicate, unintelligible sentences directly out of his class and into the hall.

What makes MFAs worth the effort is when someone you respect as much as I respect Peter insists you learn some rules. What makes his advice extra relevant is that, apparently, he learned the rules on his own. I was much too arrogant, then, to have learned rules on my own (and this may be the difference between my American education and his Australian one -- and what makes MFA programs a little bit more necessary for American writers -- throughout our educations, we learn very little humility). I would have gone on forever ignoring the rules and never getting anywhere.

That said, Peter gives some more very good advice in his New York Magazine article:

It's imposible to start a life committed to literary fiction when you are $60,000 in debt.

($60k, by the way, is a conservative estimate, Peter -- but that's sweet.)

This is the thing about MFA programs that is so often ignored: the cost defeats the purpose. No one wants to talk about money (how taboo!) -- but really, unless you have a fellowship or your parents foot the bill, an MFA is self-destructive. We want the Iowa/Irvine/Columbia label, but a place like UNLV makes a lot more sense. Or else just stalk Denis Johnson at his listed number in Idaho. Move there, work at the iHop, and beg him to mentor you. Free!

Comments

[Coll B. Lue]

'Memories' by Barbara Streisand spring to mind here and thanks Katherine for this wonderfully amusing blog - and true about writing workshops! Who's gonna want to pay the earth if we can just follow established poets for free! Thanks again for an informative and brilliantly stated review.

[Shya]

Since I first made the decision to pursue an MFA, I've read countless essays, reviews and remarks regarding the value and validity of these programs. I learned what I usually learn about any contentious issue: there are many good points to be made on either side.

Now that I'm half-way through one, however, I must say that I see it as a non-issue. Being in an MFA program will not change your life radically, nor will it radically change your writing. In it, the writer is much the same as she is in any other area or time of her life: variously stable and unstable, impressionable and closed-off, productive and complacent. She writes well sometimes, listens, sometimes, to the feedback of those around her, and if she keeps working, has incremental successes punctuated by the occasional breakthrough and setback. And all the while she's plagued by the same shortcomings and strengths of imagination, judgment, and guts that always plague her.

Cost is no more unreasonable an issue to raise as any of the other ones that haunt prospective/current/prior candidates. But I can't help thinking that, as I stated above, the cost of an MFA is just one of the things which reflect the person, and not the program. To go into debt for anything is a matter of cost/benefit analysis.

Columbia doesn't hide the fact that it's expensive to attend, or that it exists in one of the most expensive places to live in the US. Those who choose to go there must know they're either taking a big risk, or that, as must be the case for many of them, they have private funds available to mitigate the expense.

It sucks, Katherine, that you went into such debt for your MFA, but what concrete thing did you think you would get at the end besides a bill?

[Jack Pendarvis]

Gosh, with very much respect to Mr. Carey I would disagree with him on one point. Being deeply in debt shouldn't prevent anyone from being a writer. My goal is to die in a gutter like Poe, and I'm well on my way! And I don't even have an MFA. And neither did Poe, to my recollection. He preferred laudanum or something.

[TBone]

Unless you get a fellowship or can get help from your parents, I agree that some of these really expensive programs might not be worth the risk.

It seems like if you can get into one of hte top programs with full funding (through TAships or whatever) that is the best situation.

However, I am not so sure it makes more sense to go to a weak program over a top one if you have the choice. Outside of the name recognition and connections that come with an Iowa/Columbia/Irvine program, those programs get the pick of the incoming MFA class, which is to say your peer group will be far better than if you go to a no-name program.

From being in an MFA program and taking workshops in undergrad, I think I can say that your peer group is going to be the most important factor in your mfa experience most of the time.

To be frank, the number of truly great writers in MFA programs is low and even Iowa/Irvine/Columbia type programs have duds in them. I think the risk of being in a program entirely filled with writers who won't go anywhere might do a lot of damage to your writing in the long run.

[The Girl Detective]

"We want the Iowa/Irvine/Columbia label, but a place like UNLV makes a lot more sense."

Actually, Iowa and Irvine are both quite cheap compared to Columbia. The cost of living in Iowa City is next to nothing, and you can support yourself on a TAship. Irvine's a more expensive place to live, but the university gives you a full tuition waver if you teach. (Last year the grad student union at Iowa bargained for a waver as well, but it was denied; instead, tuition scholarships were increased.) I do know people at both programs who had to take out some loans, but I know others (including myself) who graduated debt free. My guess is that, in general, public universities are a better option than private ones, although I could be wrong.

I do agree with TBone, though - your peers (and professors) should be your first priority once you set a price range.

[cmoney]

I like your blog way better than Ms. He's all check me out, while you're only slightly check me out and mostly salient. I am a third grade teacher, and I write plenty, in fact it was between an MFA or teaching the third grade. You still write the same, as long as you read correctly. Just my two cents. I am not famous.

[Speechless]

" I am not famous."

Deservedly, it seems.

[cmoney]

the point being none of the other people are famous either. how many copies of these people's books are sold? all this whining over ?

[Jack Pendarvis]

Dear Mr. or Ms. Cmoney... My goodness! I never claimed to be famous! In answer to your question about how many books I have sold... 12 at last count! I sold them out of my trunk, but I trust that counts. Mom tried to buy one, she's so sweet, but I insisted on giving her one at the wholesale price. That's just how I roll! So, to be truthful, 11. Or maybe we could say 11 1/2! There, does that seem fair to you, Mr. or Ms. Cmoney? Finally, I do not believe I was "whining," as you put it. I believe I am a very cheerful fellow as a matter of fact, and I think my tone was one of gentle wry witticism with a soupcon of jaded drollery. You can tell because I used the fancy word "laudanum" for extra fanciness! Hope this clears everything up! And if you have more questions, please let me know at once!

[Jack Pendarvis]

P.S. But I must say, Mr. or Ms. Speechless, that I'm not certain you should have provoked Mr. or Ms. Cmoney that way. It seems a little grouchy! But that is just my opinion. In fact, the more that I look at both comments, the sorrier I feel for that last thing I posted. I don't believe that Mr. or Ms. Cmoney would have been aggravated into his or her response without all this curmudgeonly sniping. No offense, Mr. or Ms. Speechless! I can tell you have a sharp way with a retort and I am not eager to be the recipient! In fact, now that I have bothered to read the post that got Mr. or Ms. Cmoney worked up, I would like to apologize to Mr. or Ms. Cmoney for going on at such length in my cutesy response. That was rather rude of me. I just try to goof around and it's always fun until someone gets hurt.

[MJ]

But, but, but...some of us already have graduate degrees and gainful employment and are not going to drop it all, lose the house, and go back to school for a MFA so we can start over poor. Yee ha. And some of us in those circumstances publish anyway.

This debate is like telling someone who hates a first or second job that they either have to, or must not, quit and go back for whatever graduate degree. The life circumstances and goals of the individual dictate the decision. Plenty of MFA grads never go anywhere literary and great, but so do plenty of non-MFA grads too. Americans are way too focused on checking all of the right boxes on our Applications for a Life. There are no magic bullets, or magic bullet degrees.

Don't bend yourselves into knots too much over these issues.

[Steven Augustine]

"I like your blog way better than Ms. He's all check me out, while you're only slightly check me out and mostly salient."

Still haven't worked out the bugs in that universal translating program, I see.

[MJ]

May I reiterate my point that plenty of MFA grads don't go anywhere? Because life is unfair, because life gets in the way, because the US doesn't read books anymore, because it ain't the degree so much as the sweat equity - for any number of reasons. Whatever. I think this little bit o' reality is forgotten in the bliding glare of Iowa glory.

Now, if my life circumstances were different or I were younger or less tied to paying a mortgage, auto insurance, remaining bit of professional school loans etc. I'd love to go to Iowa or Michigan or Columbia and get a MFA. Love to, it would probably be a highlight of my life. But the degree alone would not guarantee me a glorious life of fame, fortune and adulation so I'm not going to throw myself out of my office window over not getting it either.

[Realist]

MFA grads wait tables and teach, Stephanie Klein got published. And, God Help Us, will be again.

Knock yourselves out discussing the gross miscarriage of justice that is taste and publishing in the US today...

[Cal Godot]

How did Hemingway, Faulkner, Joyce, Tolstoy, Dostoevsky, Miller, Kerouac, et al, do it without an MFA program?

Every graduate of an MFW program or creative writing program I've ever met writes almost exactly like every other graduate of an MFW program or creative writing program I've met. I've asked more than a few, "What did they do up there? Put you on a table and rip your heart out?" They're like clone factories, these programs.

Programs don't create artists. Programs create robots. Programs enforce conformity. Programs program. No good writer, and certainly no great writer, ever followed a program.

My debt is book bills and bar bills. My money lines the pockets of booksellers and bartenders, not university regents and administrators.

[grackyfrogg]

well, i don't know. i'm in a writing program right now, and i think whether it's a good or bad thing all depends on what you want to get out of it. if you want it as a guarantee for getting published, i don't recommend it. but for some of us it can be helpful, as it provides community, focus, and a kick in the pants to get us going... of course there are those who will say that if we need that kick in the pants then we are not "real writers" but that is debatable, i'm sure. at least, i will happily debate it, since i am one of the people who needs the kick!

i look at it like taking piano lessons. i studied piano for many years growing up, and a year ago i started taking lessons again, because i wanted to get better. people asked me, "why are you taking lessons if you already know how to play?" well, it's true i did not need to be taught how to play, but i needed help to find the weak areas in my playing (of which there were many!); to refine my techqnique. i needed someone who would push me to try new pieces, and not stick with the ones i was already comfortable with. and i guess that's the same reason i am in a writing program. i don't need to be taught how to write; but i do need some help with other aspects of honing my craft. the MFA seemed a good way (note that i don't say THE way) of getting what i needed.

now, this is just MY reason. i don't pretend to speak for anyone else. everyone has to decide for him/herself what works for them, whether it's an MFA or not, and act accordingly.

[MJ]

I was waiting for that, Godot.

Seriously now, MFAs aside I see the clone factor in folks who have gone workshop to workshop. Some get better and some get depleted of all personality and start to produce work that is beige with a twist. Inoffensive, pleasant, sounds nice, has a fabricated (fake) kick at the end....blah blah blah blah blah.

Whoever you are, you gots to keep your own voice and personality. Pleasing a committee is not the way to go.

And Oh Lord, I can't even deal with the Stephanie Klein factor. Where to start?

[Jason Boog]

I earned my MA in journalism, pretty close to an MFA for nonfiction.

One of the most important things that happened to me during my year and a half in school was that I made friends with other writers. I went from being a kid in small town Michigan looking for somebody to talk about books to a struggling writer in New York with a very supportive circle of writing friends.

I don't know if I could have done that by myself. But literary community is one key thing a good MFA provides (for helping me find editors, reading my work, and supporting me when I need it), and nobody ever factors that into the equation.

[LD]

"Every graduate of an MFW program or creative writing program I've ever met writes almost exactly like every other graduate of an MFW program or creative writing program I've met. I've asked more than a few, "What did they do up there? Put you on a table and rip your heart out?" They're like clone factories, these programs."

Hahaha. I'm sorry, I used to take these kinds of complaints seriously and argue with people, but it quickly became clear to me that people that say these kinds of things just have a) either no idea what they are talking about or b) don't care what the facts are, they have some grudge or ideological position and have no interest in reality (like arguing with a die-hard Bush supporter)

Lets face the facts: For good or bad, probably a majority of major contemporary american writers went to MFA programs. Are you really going to tell me that all these people winning awards and writing books that critics, readers and snobs alike enjoy are all clones?

You believe that Denis Johnson, Ben Marcus, David Foster Wallace, Maryline Robinson, Aimee Bender, MIcheal Chabon and Adam Haslett (to name merely a few MFA grads that pop into my head) all write alike? That they are all clones?

The claim just doesn't hold up to the tiniest bit of scrutiny.

I'm currently in an MFA program and while the bad writers do tend to write in a similar fashion, overall my workshops have been incredibly diverse both stylistically and subject wise. Hell, most people in my last workshop couldn't even be said to write in the same genres. One was a surrealist humorist, another was a southern gothic writer, another wrote political realist fiction, etc.

No good writer, and certainly no great writer, ever followed a program.

"followed a program" seems like some code phrase to allow yourself to wiggle out of your actual claim (that MFA programs produce clones and no good writers).

But if you don't think Flannery O'Connor, Raymond Carver, Denis Johnson, David Foster Wallace, Micheal Chabon or Ben Marcus are at the very least "good" writers what is left to say?

[MJ]

Raymond Carver is overrated. So is Foster Wallace.

"nyah"

[James]

Say you and your friend wanted to learn carpentry. You looked into a "carpentry school," where you build stuff for two years. There's not much actual instruction, but you're given assignments of things to build, over the course of two years.

You ask other people for their advice about whether or not you should enroll in the carpentry school. Nay-sayers say, "Don't do it, why would you pay yearly tuition to build things you could build on your own. Just work a job, and build the things yourself, and you will learn carpentry just as well as if you went to that expensive carpentry school."

So you decide not to enroll in the carpentry school. You continue working your job as an insurance salesman. You really meant to build stuff and become a carpenter, but you didn't do much. You were too tired at night.

Meanwhile, your friend enrolled in the carpentry school. He followed the program for two years and built a lot of things, and at the end of the two year program, he got his certificate and he was a skilled carpenter.

You realize that even though you COULD have built the very same stuff that was built in carpentry school, you didn't. You wish you had gone to carpentry school, as a way of forcing yourself to do certain exercises, learn certain skills, and become, in short a carpenter. But you're just a wanna-be carpenter.

[LD]

Raymond Carver is overrated. So is Foster Wallace.

"nyah"

Posted by: MJ | June 08, 2007 at 11:43 AM

The debate over these individual artists worth isn't horribly interesting to me. You can dislike them or love them. Both have been celebrated and praised enough that I think they meet the minimum requirements of a "good" writer, at least for hte purposes of an informal conversation (sure, you may say praise and awards don't equal quality, but I"ve been in enough arguments were people tell me that Shakespeare was overrated and Bob Dylan was a hack that these kinds of discussions tend to be fruitless)...

However, while you are free to say Carver or Wallace or whoever you want are bad writers, you cannot tell me honestly that Wallace is a "clone" of Carver, that Micheal Chabon is a carbon copy of Denis Johnson or that Ben Marcus is identical to Flannery O'Connor. To make claims that is merely absurd or dishonest.

The quality of MFA grads is up for debate, but I really don't think the diversity is.

[LD]

I also would like to briefly address the facetious rhetorical question above about "how did hemingway and all these famous artists of the past do it w/o MFA programs?"

Well, first off obviously you can be a writer without an MFA. No one has ever claimed an MFA is essential.

BUt putting that aside, how DID Hemingay and writers like that do it w/o MFA programs and workshops?

...

well... frankly they basically created defacto MFA programs. Hemingway was not in workshops at Iowa university, but he shared his work with a community of writers. Hemingway didn't enroll in classes to be taught by older professors, but he had Gertrude Stein to be his mentor and learned from older writers.

The MFA provides 2 main things in terms: Access to established writers who can be mentors and a literary community of peers.

Neither of these things is necessarily essential, but many writers need them and find them beneficial... and this has been the case for centuries. If Hemingway and Isaac Babel needed mentors and peers, why should one assume you are any different?

Certainly hanging out in Paris as an ex-pat is preferable to going to a two year university program, but the fact of the matter is the world of writing is very different today than in Hemingway's day. It is possible to get a group of writers together, but it is pretty hard and near impossible to get a group of GOOD writers unelss yo know them personally. Most writing groups open to people outside of MFA programs are frankly terrible. Unless you are lucky enough to be best friends with the next Beat poets, where else can you find a quality literary community? without stalking your favorite writers until they put a restrainging order on you, how are you going to get access to famous writers?

Again, I'm not claiming that MFA programs are essential to be a writer, but they do provide clear benefits for many people and benefits that are not readily accessible to most aspiring writers not in MFA programs.

[mf]

Over Memorial Day weekend I had a chance to reunion with a few MFA friends out in the wilderness of Idaho. Since graduation some of my classmates have begun interbreeding with non–MFA people, so both groups were on hand for the weekend. Cognitive of the debate raging on the internet over MFAs, I decided to study the behavior of these distinct groups.

After 48 hours of intense and close contact, I've concluded that there are difference between the non–MFA and MFA races, but there are also many similarities. I haven't gotten these data points into an analyzable format, but here are my immediate notes. I'll send some charts over once I get this stuff into a database.

Notes: on the June 1st & 2nd at a campsite outside Stanley, ID with MFA and non–MFA people.

Environment: No computers. A few paperbacks, but no real time to read, because we drank and swam for most of the day. 3 days of sun. Nighttime temperatures dropped into 40s.

Notes: Among the non–MFA, both men and women were peaceful in temperament and neither men nor women made war, except one non–MFA guy who was kind of a shit–talker. Among the MFA people, the opposite was true: Both men and women were warlike in temperament and shit–talkers and could be defined as "catty motherfuckers". Both the MFA and non–MFA races enjoy beer, even if a little warm. One non–MFA (the shit–talker) could funnel tequila. Non–MFA people have coarser features but beer can help. MFA people aren't good at lighting fires, but appreciate fireworks. MFA people have bad hair. Two of the three non–MFA females could crap in the woods. Both groups can swim without swimming gear.

Non–MFA, as a race, are better suited for manual labor. They take direction better than give it. But if you give them too many tasks in too short a time period, they will respond with expletives, and later shove the direction–giver off a rock into the Salmon River. Non–MFA people seem to need more food than MFA people and were often super–concerned with who is in charge of the grill. The MFA grads were more suited for tube–floating and complaining about the food. Both groups suck at fishing, but MFA people have the capacity to catch small frogs. If drunk and offered 5 dollars, one non–MFA person will smoke an el Roncho (i.e., cigarette made from toilet paper and pine needles). Neither race will eat small poops from unknown mammal species for any amount of money. MFA people can eat a lemon in under a minute for 3 dollars. Both groups love ecstasy and 10 pm sunsets and think everyone should take ecstasy and watch 10 pm sunsets at least once in their lives.

Finally, interbreeding between the MFA and non–MFA races does not seem to result in messed–up uncute–as–hell little kids.

[Coll B. Lue]

Amazing - maybe I should look into an MFA course and get amongst the writing elites and then mingle with some from the non-MFA race and get some real insight into writing. Wonderful insight, thanks for that!

[Jack Pendarvis]

Gee! Here's my idea. Pick up a book and read it. Did you like it? Good! I wonder if the writer had an MFA. Who cares? You're too tired to Google her and find out. Eat some ice cream and go to bed. Alternate: Pick up a book and start to read. Uh-oh, you don't like it! Set it on fire in a safe manner. I wonder if the writer had an MFA. Maybe! It doesn't say. I guess you'll never know. Oh, well. That's life! Once all the embers have died, eat some ice cream and go to bed. Hope this helps!

[Miles Newbold Clark]

All this talk of the "glamour" of Columbia, Iowa and Irvine...

This conversation started off by debating the pragmatic benefits of MFA programs (and why not, considering that a conservative estimate of their costs is $60,000?)

Having volunteered at several National Magazine Award-caliber magazines, I can guarantee you this: an MFA from Columbia or Irvine on its lonesome is absolutely not going to get you out of the slush pile at any venue where one publication can significantly alter the status of your writing career. And, having read a great deal of said MFA material in order to determine whether or not it should come off of the slush pile, I'd have to say that almost all of it can be left there.

So that leaves Iowa. Well, there is Iowa. At one magazine, I recall an Iowa MFA who finished his cover letter by letting us know that, "even though I know you guys don't like cover letters, just so we knew, I have an MFA from Iowa." Wink-wink. The letter was addressed to our Managing Editor. Our Managing Editor read this, then put the manuscript back in the slush pile for the volunteers.

Mr. Pendarvis may be amused to know that I threw this manuscript directly in the trash can and used its return postage to mail off my water bill.

[Jack Pendarvis]

Hey, that Miles Newbold Clark is quoting the first story in my new book on the subject of trash cans and water bills. I'm not bragging. I just don't want people to get the impression that he's making some sly reference to a manuscript of mine that he threw in the trash can. But I'm sure many people have thrown my manuscripts in trash cans, and that's fine. That's the way it goes! I believe that's the ultimate point of this entire string or thread or whatever you call it. No matter where (or if) you went to school, sometimes your manuscript gets thrown in the trash can. Oh well! Try again! Over and over.

[Nya]

I have a fantastic community of writing buddies. We all attended MFA programs mostly modest ones though my partner went to the famed "Big Show" aka Iowa. Regardless of what people have said here, his Iowa degreee *does* open a lot of doors for him. His work is pitch perfect but then so is the work of a lot of non Iowa peeps. It is his Iowa status that gets his manuscripts out of the slush and because he knows the names to drop when sending out queries. It's such a different experience for him. He's been publishing since leaving school and has a pretty decent writing job. On the other hand I have struggled. His mentors are all marquee lit figures and mine while incredible were all one or two book midlisters who haven't really had any impact since they started teaching. There is a difference. People don't like to believe it but there is. That's why people kill themselves to get into one of the triniity schools.

[Lisa Martel]

MFA programs within universities, and workshops have great potential to help junior writers to hone their talents into an accepted literary form.

Creative genius comes from both isolationism, reflection, and brief glimpses into the many works of the world.

MFA programs would need to overhaul their instructional forums to create new and outstanding writers. The current heads of the departments are slaves to those above them expecting the same performance from every student and faculty member.

Creativity does not come from PLEASING the professor and getting good grades. One must rebel at conformity to retain genius, talent, and new ideas. And, one must be able to OWN their own ideas and not hand them passively over for a professor to use at will.

Universities and colleges are slaves to conformity, so it only stands to reason that writers are all conforming as they are taught.

One must not be afraid to stick to their own style. Just as Picaso rebelled to retain his.
The beauty of a flower is in its unique design, including what we might consider its flaws.

I chose not to conform - it cost me my teaching degree. But, the rebound effect has enhanced all my other talents that I so carefully mold into new forms of reason.

Take care all.. I'm in search of scholarships to get my MFA from Whidbey, hoping their program will be able to outdistance all others. I'm still retaining hope.